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Difference between ligth and dark ghost grey

By frankycee , October 23, 2018 in Jet Modeling

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I'm doing an F-18F (diamondback anniversary scheme) in a two tone Dark Ghost grey upper and light ghost grey lower, but I don't see that much a difference using Model Master acrylics.

How 'contrasty' would the 2 colors be?

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There isn't much "contrast" between the two, but color demarcation lines on Hornets and Eagles are apparent. However, if you feather one color over the other, you may not see the difference. I suggest "hard lining" it with sharp masking to enhance the contrast. This is a 1/72 scale Hasegawa Eagle:

15 hours ago, frankycee said: How 'contrasty' would the 2 colors be?

Here is a picture showing the two actual color chips.  The difference between the two is clearly visible.

Yeah thanks...I guess its all about lighting.

Sometimes in some CF-18 pictures the contrast is   noticeable while on some navy carrier based birds its a lot less noticeable...must be the sun and salty air....

Brian P: Fightertown Decals

Canada F/A-18 use medium gray 35237 on the top...

In the real world when the F-15 was repainted in the Ghost scheme the lighter gray came premixed, but the darker gray was mixed in the paint barn by adding black to Light Ghost Gray.  That meant there were inevitably variations in the contrast between the two, sometimes intentional, sometimes not.

6 minutes ago, Murph said: In the real world when the F-15 was repainted in the Ghost scheme the lighter gray came premixed, but the darker gray was mixed in the paint barn by adding black to Light Ghost Gray.  That meant there were inevitably variations in the contrast between the two, sometimes intentional, sometimes not.   Regards, Murph

Really? Then all I need to do is get a bunch of bottles of light ghost gray and a bottle of a good neutral black and I'm set! I might try this if I can find said neutral black. I am assuming that what they would use, or am I wrong? A cool black might make it bluer, a warm one, well that would be weird looking.

5 hours ago, Murph said: In the real world when the F-15 was repainted in the Ghost scheme the lighter gray came premixed, but the darker gray was mixed in the paint barn by adding black to Light Ghost Gray. 

I find this hard to believe.  Don't the colors have to pass federal inspections?

You can take Murph's word as gospel, he's a former Eagle Driver.

2 hours ago, RichardL said:   I find this hard to believe.  Don't the colors have to pass federal inspections?

Mixing has been the case in a number of aggressor schemes, where the resulting color has no FS number, or 5% darker, etc (and sometimes the result was not intended).  I don't believe that paint has to legally match a pre-determined color.

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 11:19 PM, RichardL said:   I find this hard to believe.  Don't the colors have to pass federal inspections?

Believe what you want.  A former Eagle crew chief that posts here has mentioned several times how he used to give the paint barn a case of beer to make his jet darker, so he could more easily identify it as it came back from a sortie so he could "catch" it.  I have also posted here before that once when I stepped to fly tail # 1037 the paint scheme was decidedly non-standard with a much darker gray than normal.  Turns out the paint barn added too much black to the mix.  The wing commander was not amused, and that paint job lasted about two weeks (typically jets are only repainted about every year, at best).  That was long enough, though, for a picture of the jet to show up in an aviation magazine saying Langley was testing an experimental scheme.  We got a laugh out of that.

There is a photo in Daco Publications Uncovering the F-16 of 4 F-16s lined up preparing to take-off.  The neutral gray on all of them is a different shade.  To me it just goes to prove what everyone else above has said.

On 10/24/2018 at 5:19 AM, RichardL said:   I find this hard to believe.  Don't the colors have to pass federal inspections?

I'm pretty certain that all the paint the military uses is mixed more or less right before use, just like how your hardware store does it, and the "inspection" process likely goes something like "test spray the mixed paint, let dry, check against the paint chip in the big binder, and the officer in charge goes "close enough" and you can use it", for pretty much anything other than Have Glass paint and the like. It's inefficient as heck to cart around ready-made paint in the proper shades from the factory, especially when you need paint in the kind of quantities a military paint shed does, and with the sheer assortment of shades there are in the Federal Standard system. 

I've always though that ghost grey Eagles form the 70's and early 80's were far less contrasty than later ghost grey ones, up to and including Desert Storm, where to my eye the difference between the 36375 and 36320 was much more pronounced. May be the increasing resolution of photography in the intervening years though.

In the sun:

In the shadow:

in cloudy weather:

I use Model Master. Decanted Tamiya Rattle Can, Gunze Mr.Color and Even used MRP Once. They are all a bit different. I still don't know which I like best. If you are doing a factory fresh you can give it a soft edge by using 3M Blue Tac or Silly Putty for the line. It gives a nice soft but distinguishable line. If it's a line jet the corrosion control guys use whatever is handy and after a while in the field or on a Ship or wherever is the case the elements bleach the colors that sometimes(most times) you can not tell where one ends and the other begins. I know a lot of folks think these grey jets are BORING but for me they present the ultimate challenge To get colors that are so close in shade to look different and realistic.  Main thing Have Fun doing it!

Sebastion,  it is too bad that corrosion control service members didn't take photos of the paint cans from back in  the day.

I clearly remember spray cans with the FS number on them, and with another item number for actual ordering. (FS is NOT the item number for paint, just the color,,,,because of the different paint formulae used by the same FS color in different applications)

A google search only found a 5 gallon can of OD paint from WW II, obviously premixed. And of course, the mixing of colors to get a USN color during a transition from one color to the next in the specs would have only been possible to even print in an order from the USN on down,,,,,,,,,if there were pre-mixed paints out in the fleet,,,,,and we have some of those mixing ratios available to us in print in some of the aircraft reference booklets sold today.

But, you are pretty close with your official inspection method,,,,,,except the chips weren't kept in binders, the envelopes with the chips in them were kept in a card file. And there was a specific way that they were to be used in visual inspection of coatings. And yes, every unit expected to do paint matching had a set of cards. (and a paint locker of FS colors in cans and spray bomb cans)

We can't assume that the "way it is done today" is the way it "was done back then",,,,,,,hard to imagine digital paint mixing equipment before there was even a desktop computer,,,,,,,that thing would have cost $7 million from IBM back in the days that the Hornet first entered service.

Light does have an effect how colors are percieved by our eyes, but just to throw a wrench in the gears - it bears mentioning that colors can fade as paint is exposed to the elements.

10 hours ago, Rex said: Sebastion,  it is too bad that corrosion control service members didn't take photos of the paint cans from back in  the day.   I clearly remember spray cans with the FS number on them, and with another item number for actual ordering. (FS is NOT the item number for paint, just the color,,,,because of the different paint formulae used by the same FS color in different applications)   A google search only found a 5 gallon can of OD paint from WW II, obviously premixed. And of course, the mixing of colors to get a USN color during a transition from one color to the next in the specs would have only been possible to even print in an order from the USN on down,,,,,,,,,if there were pre-mixed paints out in the fleet,,,,,and we have some of those mixing ratios available to us in print in some of the aircraft reference booklets sold today.   But, you are pretty close with your official inspection method,,,,,,except the chips weren't kept in binders, the envelopes with the chips in them were kept in a card file. And there was a specific way that they were to be used in visual inspection of coatings. And yes, every unit expected to do paint matching had a set of cards. (and a paint locker of FS colors in cans and spray bomb cans)   We can't assume that the "way it is done today" is the way it "was done back then",,,,,,,hard to imagine digital paint mixing equipment before there was even a desktop computer,,,,,,,that thing would have cost $7 million from IBM back in the days that the Hornet first entered service.

I've seen and used FS coded spray cans and they are matt for the camo colors. There's MSN nos on the cans. Spray can colors also differ from factory paints too! Just to add on to the color differences. Even factory mixed FS colors will vary in shade with every batch. The machine that does the mixing or rather the visual device that checks the pantone shade have a tolerance range so as long a batch is within range it will pass. A batch maybe lighter or darker than another batch but both are ok QC wise. Add to the fact that matt camo colors weather rather quick, plus light differences and one will go crazy trying to get a definitive shade for each FS color!

"...... one will go crazy trying to get a definitive shade for each FS color!"

Oh, I agree with this completely. I also agree completely with the "tolerances" part of your posts. (and other posters in the past)

But, I disagree completely with any notion that a color is so far out of tolerance that new Light Gull Gray will somehow look like a pure Neutral color, or look like ADC Gray, or that Dark Ghost Gray ends up looking like 35237,,,,,or close to all of the other Grays in the FS system that weren't used or specified for aircraft paints. Or that one Gray was produced and sold to the USN when it actually looked like some other FS Gray color. That is taking "there were variables" too far, on multi-million dollar aircraft, when a man can walk past a field and tell if a tractor, costing less than some high dollar pickup trucks, is a John Deere or an Oliver,,,,,from a quarter mile away, just by which Green he sees.

Yup, a color sure looked a little bit different in different dye lots, but, still within tolerances of the control chips.

Someone out there in 1/1 land surely knows how government contracts work, and the price per gallon of paint supplied to the government in high dollar paint formula.

Also, a little more food for thought,,,,,,,,,,,paint is not applied to 1/1 aircraft the same way as a 1/48 or 1/72 model gets paint applied. We don't worry about how many Mils of paint we put on our little airframes,,,,,,,and in real life, paint is only applied up to a set weight limit,,,,or we slow the aircraft down. (competitive race cars are done the same way, even now,  in the "full body wrap" days, too much paint is too heavy, and slows the car down)

We seem to accept that "whatever was handy" got grabbed and put on an aircraft for touch-ups, while at the same time, others believe there wasn't any pre-mixed paint around. That is a "pick one or the other" situation,,,,because they are opposites, so both can't be true at the same time.

This is all just a bit funny, at times,,,,,,,people know that cap screws can get rejected because the coating is not the right weight or color, but the overall color of the full aircraft is somehow assumed to be "enny color" with crap color matches done by professional paint companies, some of whom have been making and matching paints to standards since 1917  or so.

• 1 year later...

On 10/25/2018 at 2:35 PM, Murph said:   Believe what you want.  A former Eagle crew chief that posts here has mentioned several times how he used to give the paint barn a case of beer to make his jet darker, so he could more easily identify it as it came back from a sortie so he could "catch" it.  I have also posted here before that once when I stepped to fly tail # 1037 the paint scheme was decidedly non-standard with a much darker gray than normal.  Turns out the paint barn added too much black to the mix.  The wing commander was not amused, and that paint job lasted about two weeks (typically jets are only repainted about every year, at best).  That was long enough, though, for a picture of the jet to show up in an aviation magazine saying Langley was testing an experimental scheme.  We got a laugh out of that.   Regards, Murph

Hello Murph,

fund your answer here and have one question: In Desert Shield a lot of 1st TFW birds had a stronger paint. Does it mean it was only a wrong mixture? In a Concord book (#4011, Gathering of Eagles, p. 21) is written that the painting is to imitate the MiG29. I´ve seen a lot of Langley Eagles had this camo in Desert Storm

https://www.af.mil/News/Photos/igphoto/2000595037/

Greetings from Germany, Mark

ElectroSoldier

On 10/23/2018 at 10:45 PM, Murph said: In the real world when the F-15 was repainted in the Ghost scheme the lighter gray came premixed, but the darker gray was mixed in the paint barn by adding black to Light Ghost Gray.  That meant there were inevitably variations in the contrast between the two, sometimes intentional, sometimes not.   Regards, Murph

On 10/25/2018 at 1:35 PM, Murph said:   Believe what you want.  A former Eagle crew chief that posts here has mentioned several times how he used to give the paint barn a case of beer to make his jet darker, so he could more easily identify it as it came back from a sortie so he could "catch" it.  I have also posted here before that once when I stepped to fly tail # 1037 the paint scheme was decidedly non-standard with a much darker gray than normal.  Turns out the paint barn added too much black to the mix.  The wing commander was not amused, and that paint job lasted about two weeks (typically jets are only repainted about every year, at best).  That was long enough, though, for a picture of the jet to show up in an aviation magazine saying Langley was testing an experimental scheme.  We got a laugh out of that.   Regards, Murph

None of that surprises me in the least. I know there is a paint shop "locally" to me that paints wind turbine blades. The majority go out painted white all over, but some are painted in a light grey depending on the customer order. The way they get the grey... They take the white and add a dark pigment paint to it, mixed by weight. So if the guy pouring the dark pigment in is a little heavy handed then the paint comes out darker than the others, once they are painted and on the quayside nobody cares if its a slightly darker shade of grey than the others. People seem to think paint mixing in industry is a fine art to get the exact right shade. I had a lot of fun with German tank camo coloirs too.

I believe you 100%

On 6/1/2020 at 3:27 PM, clevzy said: Hello Murph,   fund your answer here and have one question: In Desert Shield a lot of 1st TFW birds had a stronger paint. Does it mean it was only a wrong mixture? In a Concord book (#4011, Gathering of Eagles, p. 21) is written that the painting is to imitate the MiG29. I´ve seen a lot of Langley Eagles had this camo in Desert Storm     https://www.af.mil/News/Photos/igphoto/2000595037/     Greetings from Germany, Mark      

  First there is the issue of reproducing colors in photos and the printing process of books, which is a well known can of worms, and then you have to add in the various lighting and environmental conditions.  The caption about Langley painting their jets in 1990 to imitate the Fulcrum is mistaken at best, fiction at worst; I was there at the time and no such thing happened.  The simple fact is that paint colors vary from batch to batch, that's why touch-ups are often so visible, and when one of the colors is dependent on being hand mixed at the location the situation is amplified.  Modern aircraft colors are not as standardized as modelers tend to think they are.

6 hours ago, Murph said:   Mark,   First there is the issue of reproducing colors in photos and the printing process of books, which is a well known can of worms, and then you have to add in the various lighting and environmental conditions.  The caption about Langley painting their jets in 1990 to imitate the Fulcrum is mistaken at best, fiction at worst; I was there at the time and no such thing happened.  The simple fact is that paint colors vary from batch to batch, that's why touch-ups are often so visible, and when one of the colors is dependent on being hand mixed at the location the situation is amplified.  Modern aircraft colors are not as standardized as modelers tend to think they are.   Regards, Murph

Thanks Murph!

Napalmakita

On 10/23/2018 at 11:19 PM, RichardL said:   I find this hard to believe.  Don't the colors have to pass federal inspections?

I asked a very similar question to my buddy who flew Harriers at the time..."what color grey do you guys use..."  He said "man I don't know, the guys in the shop will use whatever paint is laying around that day".   It was at that time that I laughed and vowed to never stress over getting every fs color spot on or debating what grey goes where.  Especially when it comes to Navy n Marine jets..i find the more "mistakes" I make the more realistic they look

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As-26 Light Ghost Gray

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