lion class sailboat

Review of Lion Class

Basic specs..

The hull is made of fibreglass. Generally, a hull made of fibreglass requires only a minimum of maintenance during the sailing season.

The boat equipped with a masthead rig. The advantage of a masthead rig is its simplicity and the fact that a given sail area - compared with a fractional rig - can be carried lower and thus with less heeling moment.

Sailing characteristics

This section covers widely used rules of thumb to describe the sailing characteristics. Please note that even though the calculations are correct, the interpretation of the results might not be valid for extreme boats.

What is Capsize Screening Formula (CSF)?

The capsize screening value for Lion Class is 1.45, indicating that this boat could - if evaluated by this formula alone - be accepted to participate in ocean races.

What is Theoretical Maximum Hull Speed?

The theoretical maximal speed of a displacement boat of this length is 6.7 knots. The term "Theoretical Maximum Hull Speed" is widely used even though a boat can sail faster. The term shall be interpreted as above the theoretical speed a great additional power is necessary for a small gain in speed.

The immersion rate is defined as the weight required to sink the boat a certain level. The immersion rate for Lion Class is about 136 kg/cm, alternatively 763 lbs/inch. Meaning: if you load 136 kg cargo on the boat then it will sink 1 cm. Alternatively, if you load 763 lbs cargo on the boat it will sink 1 inch.

Sailing statistics

This section is statistical comparison with similar boats of the same category. The basis of the following statistical computations is our unique database with more than 26,000 different boat types and 350,000 data points.

What is Motion Comfort Ratio (MCR)?

What is L/B (Length Beam Ratio)?

What is Displacement Length Ratio?

What is SA/D (Sail Area Displacement ratio)?

Maintenance

Are your sails worn out? You might find your next sail here: Sails for Sale

If you need to renew parts of your running rig and is not quite sure of the dimensions, you may find the estimates computed below useful.

This section is reserved boat owner's modifications, improvements, etc. Here you might find (or contribute with) inspiration for your boat.

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If you have any comments to the review, improvement suggestions, or the like, feel free to contact us . Criticism helps us to improve.

Arthur Robb Lion Class Sloop 1953 - Sold

Arthur Robb Lion Class Sloop 1953

These details are provisional and may be amended

BROKER'S COMMENTS

Designed by Arthur C Robb, MBE the first Lion was built in 1950 and beat most of her contemporaries in that year’s Round the Island Race. This was a fine achievement as the race was mostly to windward and she drew only 4 ft 6. She entered one other race that season and won, but she was primarily a cruiser and indeed an excellent cruising yacht for up to four people. She is admired wherever she goes, especially for her lovely blue hull and flared wineglass transom - unique to this Lion. Her rig and deck equipment have been upgraded every year to enhance performance and she is now in a race winning state, where a fine pedigree (Sydney-Hobart wins in 1959 and 1960 for a sister ship SIANDRA) and ease of handling make her difficult to beat in 12 – 18 knot winds. She is offered for sale with her HGV trailer enabling local storage out of season - She has wintered under cover since 1995.

Interested in LEONIE in more detail.

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Lion owners included the John Lewis Partnership SABEEMA and Major Richard Gatehouse’s REFLECTION, aboard which he tested his famously indestructible B&G instruments in the 1970s. Production dwindled in the 1960s although Bristows Book of Yachts claims 140 had been built by 1964 and a last few were made with GRP hulls and timber decks all in teak by Cheoy Lee in Hong Kong. LEONIE herself has cruised extensively to France and the south coast of the UK, typically sailing two up. Equipped for racing however, the results speak for themselves with a consistent series of wins in two of the major UK classic regattas year after year.

Construction

Mahogany planking on steamed oak frames, built by Woodnuts, IOW. The hull was stripped and epoxy splined around 1995. The deck is Coelan coated teak strip planking laid over original sub deck, believed pine. Tiller steering; beautifully balanced and finger light on the helm.

Accommodation and domestic equipment

- The saloon was remodelled in 1995; constructed in ash and mahogany - The galley is now at companionway entrance for better headroom, access and ventilation - Galley worktop tiled in beige - Deep stainless steel single bowl sink brass antique taps with pressurized hot and cold water - Bronze fresh water tap manual pump - Taylor’s gimballed brass pressurized cooker with oven and paraffin tank below - Bronze mushroom vent above - Storage below chart table for tools etc - Quarter berth space used for bulk storage, fridge etc. - 4 x dry storage compartments - 2 x 2m berths with moveable wedge to make double. Cushions to fit - Overhead lights and paraffin lamp - Storage spaces at sides of berths - Fully fitted cushions - Central table with two drawers and engine beneath - Medicine cupboard - Head compartment moved slightly and WC replaced with a new Plastimo 2009 - Wash hand basin pressure hot and cold water - Pressure hot and cold water shower in limited space - Wet cupboard space for wet weather gear - Airing cupboard hot water tank & - Speed log access - Dry Storage for clothes - Floor access to bilges and engine sea-cock

Rig, spars and sails

- Original mast; believed spruce with single spreader - Original boom; believed spruce, fitted with original roller and slab reefing - Alloy spinnaker boom - Standing rigging at least 10 years old but checked each year - Forestay upgraded 2009 - Running rigging all replaced from 2002 onwards - Main and genoa halyards, outhaul and genoa sheets in Dyneema - Heavy and light spinnaker sheets / guys c/w Wichard quick release - Garhauer blocks; main, spinnaker sheets, slab reefing, outhaul, spinnaker downhaul 2008 - Main sail Quantum 2004 - Furling headsail Quantum 2004 - Asymmetric 61.96 sq m spinnaker; Quantum 2004 - Larger symmetric spinnaker; McWilliam late 90s

Deck equipment and ground tackle

- Lewmar 40 bronze finish other reefing / outhaul winch on coach roof added 2004 - 2 x Lewmar 40 bronze finish self tailing sheet winches new 1995 - Lewmar mainsheet traveler system new 2009 - Spray hood new 2010 - Lofrans electric anchor windlass new 2005 - CQR main anchor - CQR kedge anchor stored aft - 30 m galvanised chain new 2002

Mechanical electrical and tankage

- Beta Marine 3 cylinder 17 HP diesel engine new 1995, first used 2002 - Darglow fully feathering 3 bladed prop new 2007 - Engine Oil and Temperature gages, Rev Counter, switch panel - 90 A alternator new 2007 - 2 x 115 AH large batteries beneath cockpit sole new 2008 - Main battery isolator switch - 230 V AC charger for windlass battery - 230 V AC UK 3 pin power socket - Calorifier and 230 V AC electric immersion for hot water - Shower sump box; overboard pump - Main sea cocks - 60 litre stainless steel fuel tank beneath cockpit sole - 2 x 100 litre Plastimo water tanks beneath berths new 2006

Navigation communications and electronics

- Chart Table / drawer with instruments above - Bronze mushroom vent above - Raymarine ST60 Depth and Speed gauges 1995 - Raymarine ST 4000 Autohelm with remote control 1995 - Garmin C192 Colour Chart plotter (2003) - Raymarine Seatalk interface module for a PC connect giving GPS, speed, depth and wind - Panasonic touch screen FM/AM radio/CD system (2005) - Storage below chart table for tools etc - Unused quarter berth used for bulk storage, fridge etc - Repeater instrumentation new 2005 facing tiller in custom, ventilated mahogany display - Cetrek WIND (360 degrees, New 2004) - Cetrek TACK (+/- 90 degrees, New 2004) - Cetrek MULTI displays x 2 (display up to four feeds each, New 2004) - Cetrek Windex instrument at mast head (New 2004)

- 6 Person Plastimo offshore life raft in date - Jackstays fore to aft - Two orange life buoys, 1 with automatic emergency buoy light. - 6 safety harnesses - MT DSC VHF radio new 2008 - Hand held fog horn - Radar reflector plastic encased - 2 Dry powder fire extinguishers - 2 electric automatic bilge pumps - 1 manual bilge pump

Refit works

Under previous ownership extensive works were carried out; largely on the hull structure, internal layout and key items of equipment including the calorifier, engine, bronze winches, stove and heater. The hull had been stripped to bare wood and then epoxy splined (caulking removed and replaced with splines of timber epoxied in place with the exterior planks then coated in epoxy and faired). Thus the hull is stiff, strong, watertight and faired. Internally, most of the saloon bulkheads and panel work was removed and replaced. The two aft quarter berths were removed to make space for the galley and chart table. The engine was moved forward to the centre of the saloon for better weight distribution and better headroom by the galley / chart table. On acquisition by the current owners in 2002, they aimed to return Leonie to a strong seaworthy condition equipped for racing as well as cruising and there was still much to do. A number of frames were cracked (not unusual) and over 30 were sistered with new steamed oak frames. Bearers for the engine shafting were strengthened and the wrought iron strap floors cleaned. The boat was completely rewired and all mechanical and electrical devices were checked and or serviced. The deck, coach roof and cockpit areas were stripped and coated with multiple coats of the Coelan varnish. All fixed glass port lights in the coach roof were removed and replaced with new glass and newly constructed mahogany frames. All hatches were stripped, re-glued and treated with Cetol varnish / stain as used also on the spars. The interior layout lost two quarter berths but gained a more comfortable galley and nav station. The engine has been moved forward to below the saloon table for better weight distribution and greater head room by the galley / nav station. Upgrading has been continued year on year with a set of new blocks including mainsheet and spinnaker, light weight sheets, slab reefing, a new mainsheet track, new running rigging, more recent Furlex and as of 2009 a new WC. The engine has been fully serviced each year by the owners. The main propeller shaft was reamed and replaced in 2002 along with the bearings for the link shaft to the engine. The engine has recently been serviced again prior to launching.

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These particulars have been prepared from information provided by the vendors and are intended as a general guide. The purchaser should confirm details of concern to them by survey or engineers inspection. The purchaser should also ensure that the purchase contract properly reflects their concerns and specifies details on which they wish to rely.

Sandeman Yacht Company

Brokerage of classic & vintage yachts.

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Cheoy Lee 35 Review

• Thread starter Soundbounder
• Start date Feb 9, 2012
• Brand-Specific Forums
• Other Sailboats

Soundbounder

Cheoy Lee 35 Lion Class Nice used-boat review in Soundings: Designer Arthur Robb, a native New Zealander, was well-known in the 1950s and ’60s for his offshore cruising sailboats. Cheoy Lee, the pioneering Hong Kong builder (though it was founded in Shanghai) began producing the 35 Lion Class in 1955, and more than 100 wooden hulls were built before the changeover to fiberglass in the 1960s. These early glass hulls featured teak decks over plywood, which often led to delamination problems. Production of the popular cruisers continued into the 1980s. In 1965, a new Cheoy Lee 35 Lion cost $13,900. Used models today generally run from about $40,000 up to $85,000 for “showroom” boats, although there are bargains out there, too, especially if you’re looking for a fixer-upper. http://www.soundingsonline.com/boat-shop/used-boat-review/287682-cheoy-lee-35-lion-class  

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Specifications LION CLASS (ROBB)

Home - Sailboat Listings 1951 - 35.50 ft / 10.82 m - Arthur Robb - Cheoy Lee Yachts (HK) Bickfords - Woodnutts (UK)

LION CLASS (ROBB) Sailboat Data

Hull Type: Fin Keel Rigging Type: Masthead Sloop LOA: 35.50 ft / 10.82 m LWL: 25.00 ft / 7.62 m S.A. (reported): 513.00 ft² / 47.66 m² Beam: 8.75 ft / 2.67 m Displacement: 14,200.00 lb / 6,441 kg Ballast: 4,000.00 lb / 1,814 kg Max Draft: 5.50 ft / 1.68 m Construction: Teak/FG First Built: 1951 Last Built: 1965 # Built: 150 Builder: Cheoy Lee Yachts (HK) Bickfords, Woodnutts (UK) Designer: Arthur Robb

Information from  sailboatdata.com .

Hull Speed: 6.70 kn

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Sailing yachts

Arthur Robb Lion Class

• Designer: Arthur Robb
• Builder: Cheoy Lee, Hong Kong
• Location: North Wales
• Length on deck: 35'6"
• Draft: 5'7"
• Tonnage: 9TM

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Full specification

Wooden Ships Comments on this Arthur Robb Lion Class

Designed by Arthur C. Robb and built by the Cheoy Lee Shipyard, Hong Kong in 1961.

The Lion Class was a very successful design from the eminent Arthur C. Robb. Many examples (including this one) were built by the Cheoy Lee Shipyard in Hong Kong benefitting from the close proximity of tropical forests where the best teak could be sourced.

The Lion Class was built in deep and shallow draft variants, this yacht being the deeper type at 5’7” with a reasonably cut away forefoot making her nimble and quick in the turn. Elegant stretched ends with a sleek counter and a very sweet sheer line which is helped by the low profile coachroof.

This yacht has benefited from an incredible amount of diligent refit work by the three most recent owners. Initially in Bermuda during the 90’s where much of the interior was altered and bronze strap floors fitted replacing the original steel. After crossing the Atlantic several times and competing very successfully in the Antigua Classics regatta in 2004 and 2005 she came back to the UK. Her successful racing career continued with notable results in the Round The Island race and other classic regattas.

In the following ownership she had a good deal of updating including a new engine, systems and rig with a thorough cosmetic spruce up but in the current ownership the standard of finish, systems, and structural maintenance were taken to a new level with major work to include dropping of the ballast keel and replacement of all keel bolts, some beefing up of the centreline structure and the yawl rig replaced by a beautiful custom made fractional sloop rig in full length Oregon pine to the original drawings. All work carried out by David Moss Boatbuilders who are well known for their exceptional quality.

Other work carried out during the refit included new timber hatches to replace modern ones, much improved access to the drive and stern gland, a new fuel tank, rudder bearings and a Featherstream four bladed folding prop giving much improved performance under sail.

The work was completed by a back to bare timber repaint and professional varnish work. A new suit of top quality tri-radial sails by Goachers put the finishing touches to what is now a top class yacht in superb order.

A  shakedown season in the Irish Sea and Western Approaches during 2022 allowed thorough testing of the new rig and systems. The yacht has been stored under cover since and is in ready to sail condition.

Length on Deck                       35’6”

Length Waterline                    25’

Beam                                          8’9”

Draft                                           5’7”

Thames Tonnage                     9TM

Construction

• Planked in teak, splined above the waterline, all copper fastened to closely spaced steamed timbers. Hood ends and garboards fastened with bronze screws.
• Doubled frames in way of the chain plates. Two enormous full length stringers.
• Bronze strap floors across the centreline with bronze bolts.
• External iron ballast keel lowered from the boat in 2022.  Epoxy coated and all new mild steel keel bolts in 2022.

Decks and cockpit

• Marine plywood deck sheathed externally with epoxy glass cloth and finished with cream deck paint. Wide side decks for easy movement.
• Varnished teak toe rail all round with profiled scuppers.
• Gas bottle store on aft deck.
• Stainless steel pulpit and push pit (with teak seating and outboard storage bracket).
• Self draining cockpit with varnished teak thwarts.  Sealed sole hatch gives access to stern gland and gearbox.
• Sloping teak capping boards on the coamings serve as bases to sheet winches and provide excellent seating when heeled.  T
• iller steering (all bearings and seals replaced 2022) with rudder stock at aft end of cockpit. Tiller hinged for access.
• Large lockers beneath varnished teak cockpit seats.
• Fuel tank access and small locker under bridge deck.
• Teak grating to cockpit floor.

Superstructure

• Varnished teak coachroof coamings with bronze framed portholes either side.
• The low coachroof lifts at the aft end to a small doghouse giving ample standing headroom to galley and chart table.
• New teak forehatch on coachroof. Hatch to large anchor and fender locker on foredeck.
• Varnished teak dorade boxes with bronze vents give ventilation.
• Varnished teak skylight over saloon.
• The doghouse has a garage for the offset sliding main hatch.
• A fitted spray hood on a stainless frame gives marvellous shelter to the cockpit.
• Complete new rig to original Arthur Robb design installed in 2022.
• Fractional bermudan sloop rig on new timber spars. Mast is of hollow construction using full lengths of Oregon pine.  Deck stepped as designed with a steel ring frame below.
• Stainless steel standing rigging and bespoke fittings all new in 2022.  Internal stainless stee chain plates.
• Varnished wooden slab reefing boom new in 2022.
• Running rigging all new in 2022.
• Sailspar headsail roller furling system.
• Laminate Tri-radial mainsail and genoa by Goachers new in 2022.
•  Storm jib and asymmetric spinnaker.
• Pair of Lewmar ST40 cockpit sheet winches.  Pair of smaller spinnaker winches In cockpit.
• Lewmar ST30 on coachroof to handle lines running aft.
• 2 bronze winches on mast. One stainless reefing winch on boom.
• Beta Marine 3 cyl. 25hp fresh water cooled diesel installed 2013.
• Stainless shaft (new 2022) to a Featherstream four bladed prop gives 7kts max.  Single lever controls in cockpit.
• Domestic hot water calorifier connected to engine.
• 15 gallon stainless steel fuel tank under bridge deck.
• 2x 40 gallon epoxy lined fresh water tanks under berths.
• 2 x 12v heavy duty AGM batteries for engine starting and domestic (new 2017)
• 1x 12v heavy duty battery for anchor windlass.

Accommodation

• 4 berths in total. Double or twin V- berth forward and two saloon settee berths.
• Steps down over engine box from companion hatch to saloon. Large removable varnished teak box for tools etc on engine box lid.
• Galley to port, chart desk starboard.
• Saloon berths are staggered and extendable outwards. Sbd berth has a trotter box under chart table. Very comfortable saloon cushions and seating area.
• Large lockers behind berths. Bookshelf locker and drinks cabinet with glazed doors to fwd ends.
• Centreline folding teak table on stainless legs.
• Passageway fwd offset slightly to forecabin. 2 berths with infill to make double. Small washbasin with hot and cold water over hanging locker. Storage drawer and lockers under berths.
• Force 10 gimballed stainless steel three burner cooker with oven and grill. Single bowl sink with pressurised  hot and cold water.
• Ample storage behind galley for kitchenware, glasses etc.
• Heads compartment fwd to starboard with a Jabsco sea toilet pumping directly overboard.
• Steering compass x2.
• NASA log and sounder.
• Ray marine autohelm 4000.
• Tacktick wind indicator.
• Standard Horizon CP300i chart plotter.
• ICOM DSC VHF radio (2022)
• Clock and barometer
• Bunk and berth cushions
• Force 10 3 burner gas cooker with oven and grill
• Jabsco manual sea toilet
• Stereo cd player radio
• 2 x 12 v automatic bilge pumps
• Manual Whale bilge pump
• 4 man canister Crewsaver iso ocean life raft. New 2022
• Fire extinguisher
• Fire blanket in galley
• 35lb genuine Bruce anchor
• 40m x 10 mm galvanised chain plus 20m heavy anchorplait
• 30lb danforth type anchor on  chain and  40m anchorplait
• Lofrans 12v manual and electric anchor windlass.
• Mooring warps
• Mainsail by Goachers, 2022
• Genoa by Goachers, 2022
• Asymmetric spinnaker
• Pair of Lewmar ST40 cockpit sheet winches
• Pair of secondary non-ST cockpit sheet winches
• Lewmar 30ST on coachroof
• Pair of bronze non-ST mast winches
• Boom reefing winch
• Sailspar roller furling headsail system
• Cream canvas spray hood
• Cream canvas dodgers
• Cream canvas hatch covers
• Cream canvas cockpit cover
• Stainless folding boarding ladder
• Sundry engine spares and manual

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Disclaimer:

These particulars have been prepared in good faith from information provided by the Vendors and are intended as a guide, Wooden Ships cannot guarantee or warrant the accuracy of this information nor warrant the condition of the vessel. The Purchaser should instruct his agent or surveyor to validate all details as necessary and satisfy himself with the condition of the vessel and its equipment.

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• Secret (Unbuilt) Projects
• Secret Naval Projects

Royal Navy Lion Class Battleship series 1938-1945

• Thread starter Tzoli
• Start date 3 October 2019
• Tags admiralty battleships directorate of naval construction early 1930s early 1940s great britain pre-world war ii royal navy world war ii

ACCESS: Top Secret

• 3 October 2019

• 4 October 2019

https://imgur.com/fdTRNy8

https://imgur.com/GHU5ikl

• 5 October 2019

Final 1945 designs added Sidenote: Apparently a number of main weapon calibres were discussed and proposed for the Lion class Battleships since their creation in late 1937: 14"/45 BL Mark VII - same guns used on the King George V class Battleships 15"/45 BL Mk II (1935 gun design not the 1920's 15"/50 BL Mk II) - same guns proposed for the King George V class Battleships when was still in development 15"/45 BL Mk III - new 1945 design still under development when the program ended as suggested by the official papers. Might be the same construction as the 16" Mark IV cannons with the same loading mechanism and shell design 16"/45 BL Mk II - official cannon for the 1938-40 designs 16"/45 BL Mk III - probably intended for the 1942-44 designs an earlier version of the final Mark IV 16"/45 BL Mk IV - official weapon for the 1944-1945 versions with new shell and higher speed reloading mechanism (expected rate of fire was 3 RPM) 16"/50 BL Mk V (my unofficial designation) - discussions was made in 1945 to increase the calibre length of 16" mark IV cannon to 50 calibres as both the USN and the Soviet Navy adopted longer barrelled cannons of 16" calibre to increase penetration power togeher with a much longer shell.  

The forward and after machinery sets in Design B were separated by a 36ft magazines space giving better protection against underwater attack. Click to expand...

That X3 drawing only shows the layout of X3, no drawings were found for the other variants, not even sketch ones in the Admiralty papers (Except the detailed drawing of the finished 1938 design as ordered) so I would not assume that the X3 with it's all forward main turret arrangement's secondary magazine layout would apply to the B versions. My friend who scanned the images at first thought that the AA arrangement of the 12x 4,5" twin turrets would be as depicted as I draw them in the 1944 versions later as he skimmed through the pages he then considered an arrangement as I depicted for the 1945 versions or his idea of 3 superfiring pairs where the 2nd center pair was rotated 90 degrees essentially the middle two turrets facing to port and starboard and not to forward like the 1st or to aft like the 3rd pair. He on the other hand had never found any mention for a centreline superfiring turrets or pairs like on the Soviet Stalingrads. Also there are other info in the Admiralty papers: I now post my friend's notes (who scanned the images) (bold is original text from the papers): 1945 Battleship Committee Report, ADM 1/17251, Page 5, Paragraph 6: Secondary Armament A secondary armament of 4.5-inch H.A./L.A. guns, 40mm AA guns and light close-range weapons of the order proposed in the Staff requirements for the 1945 Lion class battleship is recommended. This is based on the ability to engage up to 6 separate aircraft targets. Should however, considerations of length and weight make a reduction necessary, the number of 4.5-inch turrets should be reduced from twelve to ten. This (not in the ships cover) tells us that the Staff Requirements for the 1945 Lion was for the secondary armament plus the lighter AA guns to be able to engage six separate aerial targets simultaneously. When I first read this my mind was focused on the secondary 4.5-inch armament only and I failed to pick up that the lighter AA guns were clearly included as part of the six target AA defence requirement. This error my part helped lead me to the conclusion that the 4.5-inch turrets were arranged in six distinct groups to allow the turret pairs the freedom to track their own targets without interference from the other turret pairings. Now, after looking at this again it seems clear that I was badly mistaken with my original conclusion. That two 4.5-inch turrets could be removed without losing the ability to engage six separate targets reinforces this. While skimming through the cover last night I noted that the secondary armament was to be controlled by Four Mk 37 directors and Eight M.R.S. directors which is something else I didn’t pay attention to; It provides a director for each turret but not for easily dividing the turrets into six paired groupings. The fire control setup allows for the secondaries to engage four and not six targets at long range which is what the developers of the 1945 Lion were primarily concerned with due to the development of standoff aerial weapons. This brings us back to your original depiction of the 4.5’s being arranged in four triple super-firing groups. All the arguments I made for this arrangement back then still stand, so I now have come back to thinking that this was the most likely arrangement. 1944/45 Lion Battleship Cover, ADM 138/730, Folio 4: Secondary armament for new Battleships. It is confirmed that in the new battleship design a secondary armament of 6 x 4.5-inch twin turrets each side, with the necessary controls, can be mounted without weakening the structure of the ship. C.S. Lillicrap. Director Naval Construction 24th April 1944. This confirms that the twelve 4.5-inch twin turrets will be arranged with six located along the port side of the ship and the remaining six mirroring their locations along the starboard side of the ship. None will be located on the centre line fore and aft of the superstructure as suggested in that obscure drawing you posted. However, this doesn’t tell us the precise arrangement of the turrets. Based on all previous British practice for locating turreted secondaries, it seems very safe to assume that none will be located beyond the fore and aft ends of the superstructure. Not even G3 or Nelson placed them beyond the aft end of the superstructure despite the advantages in increased firing arcs that would result from doing so. 1944/45 Lion Battleship Cover, ADM 138/730, Folio 30: Secondary Armament. It is considered probable that G.A.P. will be developed in time for fitting in these ships. This project is in an early stage of development and no details of the installation that will be required can be definitely stated at the present time. It is considered however, that within a few years no ship not equipped with G.A.P. will be able to defend herself against the new forms of air attack that must be envisaged. Since very little is yet known of the effectiveness of G.A.P., it is not recommended that the projectors should be fitted in lieu of all the 4.5-inch turrets. Moreover, the 4.5-inch turrets have a very important role in the medium and close-range AA defence of the ship and for surface fire; functions which G.A.P. cannot fulfil. It is considered that two G.A.P. projectors only should be provided for in the first instance. It is therefore proposed that the following note should be added under line 2 of Section B of the draft: “ Provision is required for fitting two G.A.P. projectors each side in lieu of two of the 4.5-inch turrets each side. If the G.A.P. is not developed by the time the ships are completed, the projectors will be fitted retrospectively. ” Gun control. Secondary Armament. Separate control of each 4.5-inch turret against aircraft at medium and close ranges in addition to the four H.A. control systems, are therefore required. The draft should be amended to read as follows: “ 4 long range Control Systems arranged in a diamond formation. 8 medium range systems. (4 when G.A.P. is fitted). Note: Self contained control of each turret is not expected to be developed in time for these ships. ” 1944/45 Lion Battleship Cover, ADM 138/730, Folio 39: Secondary Armament 24 x 4.5-inch guns in 12 twin turrets. NOTE: Provision is required for fitting two G.A.P. projectors each side in lieu of 2 x 4.5-inch turrets each side. If G.A.P. is not developed by the time the ships are completed the projectors will be fitted later. All the above seems to say that it was hoped that the original GAP projector would be a direct swap out for a twin 4.5-inch turret. However, the writing leaves some confusion over whether two or four turrets are to be swapped out for GAP projectors. I think that there is an error in the writing and that the balance of evidence suggests that it is two turrets replaced with two GAP projectors on BOTH sides of the ship for a total of four GAP projectors, leaving eight 4.5 turrets in four super-firing groups. Another thought that led me originally to conclude that the 4.5’s were in six separate groups is that it seemed unlikely that GAP projectors would be located next to gun turrets due to the effect rocket exhaust would have on any nearby 4.5-inch gun turrets. However, while skimming through the cover last night I noticed that GAP missiles were initially launched by a cordite charge and the rocket motor ignited only when the missile was well away from the ship so, rocket black blast is not a consideration.  

Tzoli, Thank you for your very detailed response. I agree (I had forgotten about the reference to the guns being sided), the 4.5" weapons were either grouped in two sets of three or three sets of two either side. However, I think it is likely that the amidships magazine was present on all the B-series designs, the driver seems to have been for underwater protection and it appears in the 1944/5 Neptune design so having two pairs of turrets amidships on either beam is plausible to me. The separate control of each individual turret is also interesting and it mirrors what was wanted for the Malta class though obviously a battleship is much easier to site all those guns and directors on than a carrier. Combined with the sextuple bofors it would have been a very formidable anti-aircraft armament.  

For the 1944 versions I've chosen the super and super-superfiring arrangement for the secondary guns because I remember that the RN was always nervous about ahead and astern fire for their secondary guns, either for AA or anti surface role and this arrangement was the best for that kind of job without the usage of the USN style diamond arrangement (Alaska, Cleveland, Baltimore classes)  

Pirate Pete

Access: secret.

• 6 October 2019

Tzoli. Excellent representations, thanks. Up until now the only 'sketches' I have seen of the Lion class designs were in an early (when it was a quarterly publication) edition of Warship, and these were only simplified basic outline type, plus they stopped at an earlier point than those you have produced.  

• 7 October 2019

Interesting to note that the sextuple bofors don't actually require much more deck area than the STAAG twins.  

• 8 October 2019

DWG said: Interesting to note that the sextuple bofors don't actually require much more deck area than the STAAG twins. Click to expand...

Yes a regular twin 40mm/56 Bofors like the Mk V mountign using the Mk XI guns were as big as the quad Pom-poms, still the STAAG twin mount was smaller then the USN's quad mount which was as large as a twin 5"/38 turret!  

With the Bofors quad the US traded simplicity of production - two twins on the same platform - for size. Vertically stacked pairs of guns would have been significantly more compact, but would have needed a new mounting to be developed, and loading would have been more complex to arrange. OTOH the sextuple Bofors showed it was quite feasible to do that.  

Friedman mentions in his British cruiser book that it was considered to develop a quad 3" and 16!!!! barrelled Bofors for post war based on the experiences of the Pacific war, especially the Kamikaze threat!  

Tzoli said: Friedman mentions in his British cruiser book that it was considered to develop a quad 3" and 16!!!! barrelled Bofors for post war based on the experiences of the Pacific war, especially the Kamikaze threat! Click to expand...

• 9 October 2019

I see! Hmm I could only think of a few mountigns to carry 16x 40mm guns and all of them would be very big. Either a twin-octuple mount with either horizontally aka Pom-pom or vertically aka Bofors mounted guns in each octuple part. Or a quadruple quad mount with diamond arrangement on 3 levels. On the centreline the first mount, then somewhat higher at both sides another two mounts and finally again at centreline aft the 4th mount superfiring the lower two. Belt feeding could make the mount somewhat smaller as the guns could be placed closer to each other. Another idea of a rectangle arrangfement where at both sides are a pairs of quads one superfiring and all 4 on the same mount. Or maybe a 6-4-6 arrangement of a quad was placed above and after the two sideways placed sextuple mounts.  

MJBurmaster

I really should change my personal text.

• 30 October 2019

Excellent work, Tzoli, but as you'll recall from discussions on the late Warships 3.0, the very intriguing aspect of all this was the makeup of the armour suite. Readings clearly indicate the desire for standoff armour above hte main armour deck and perhaps higher given the desire to fuze aircraft weaponry before it would hit the armour deck. This consideration certainly required lessening weights to avoid ships soaring about the 70k tonne mark and having a budget busing price tag. But - would be of note to see a potential armour schematic which would in turn affect the outward look of the ship. After all, the secondaries would require a higher degree of armouring or even abandonment given the openings in the armour decks.  

https://imgur.com/MPCZBqU

• 31 October 2019

Tzoli said: Hmm I could only think of a few mountigns to carry 16x 40mm guns and all of them would be very big. Click to expand...

Yes but I'm not sure you can feed guns upside down (feed from below) in 1946-48, though belt feeding could solve the problem? As for the dry dock/floating dock image, I will post it later. What I can tell you that its shape dos not show the characteristic transom stern of Lion and Vanguard but maybe because its showing the underwater part.  

Nick Sumner

Live from the belly of the beast.

The shape of the barbettes is interesting. Any idea why they were like that?  

https://imgur.com/Q5wygU6

https://imgur.com/YQvHHQB

https://imgur.com/K7HtVBu

https://imgur.com/fuAfjg0

Indeed but the page was from the 1944-45 Lion papers.  

Tzoli said: Yes but I'm not sure you can feed guns upside down (feed from below) in 1946-48, though belt feeding could solve the problem? Click to expand...

phil gollin

• 4 November 2019

Tzoli said: Indeed but the page was from the 1944-45 Lion papers. Click to expand...

Ships covers from the Brass Foundry archives. My freind went there and photographed the relevant covers as well as 2 of the Vanguard covers, both showing the as designed (aka KGV/Lion Proto Vanguard style superstructure, secondaries, catapult and pom-poms) and as finished drawings  

Bruno Anthony

I miss the cold war.

• 24 November 2019

Tzoli. Are those images from the Ship Covers at Brass Foundry?  

The images with the yellow papers? Yes they are from there.  

ACCESS: Confidential

• 20 February 2020

• 21 July 2020

Tzoli said: While skimming through the cover last night I noted that the secondary armament was to be controlled by Four Mk 37 directors and Eight M.R.S. directors which is something else I didn’t pay attention to; It provides a director for each turret but not for easily dividing the turrets into six paired groupings. The fire control setup allows for the secondaries to engage four and not six targets at long range which is what the developers of the 1945 Lion were primarily concerned with due to the development of standoff aerial weapons. This brings us back to your original depiction of the 4.5’s being arranged in four triple super-firing groups. All the arguments I made for this arrangement back then still stand, so I now have come back to thinking that this was the most likely arrangement. Click to expand...

Attachments

Yes that drawing really helps how you imagine the layout of the secondary armament. I will try to make a version of the plain X3 to represent this idea. This also explains the 3 ammo storage spaces in the hull shown on the original paper. Though my issue being the forward pair of turrets would be too close to the 16" turrets and blast effects would be severe.  

A Tentative Fleet Plan

JFC Fuller said: Tzoli said: While skimming through the cover last night I noted that the secondary armament was to be controlled by Four Mk 37 directors and Eight M.R.S. directors which is something else I didn’t pay attention to; It provides a director for each turret but not for easily dividing the turrets into six paired groupings. The fire control setup allows for the secondaries to engage four and not six targets at long range which is what the developers of the 1945 Lion were primarily concerned with due to the development of standoff aerial weapons. This brings us back to your original depiction of the 4.5’s being arranged in four triple super-firing groups. All the arguments I made for this arrangement back then still stand, so I now have come back to thinking that this was the most likely arrangement. Click to expand...

Tzoli said: Yes that drawing really helps how you imagine the layout of the secondary armament. I will try to make a version of the plain X3 to represent this idea. This also explains the 3 ammo storage spaces in the hull shown on the original paper. Though my issue being the forward pair of turrets would be too close to the 16" turrets and blast effects would be severe. Click to expand...

• 23 July 2020

Lion 1938 - Google Drive

Thank you for sharing them, Tzoli ! And maybe, there's also a gem for the "aircraft only purists", as on the plans of the after sections and the profile, the ship's aircraft is shown, which to me looks like a Fairey Albacore with floats. Still yet, I haven't found a mention of such a version.  

I would share more but it is difficult to find a sharing website which allows 40Gb!! of a 1000+ files large upload!  

The papers not mentions the aircraft type specifically but: AIRCRAFT. A double acting fixed athwartship D.III.H catapult is mounted between the funnels and arranged to operate aircraft of 12,000 lbs. and 50 ft. span. Two aircraft are carried in hangers built abreast the forward funnel. Power operated trollies transfer the aircraft from the hangers to the catapult. Two cranes are provided for handling aircraft and boats.  

ACCESS: Above Top Secret

Jemiba said: Thank you for sharing them, Tzoli ! And maybe, there's also a gem for the "aircraft only purists", as on the plans of the after sections and the profile, the ship's aircraft is shown, which to me looks like a Fairey Albacore with floats. Still yet, I haven't found a mention of such a version. Click to expand...

Fairey Albacore Naval Torpedo Bomber Biplane Aircraft

First flight for an Albacore prototype came on December 12th, 1938 - less than a year from the British declaration of war on Germany (this still to come in September of 1939). A second prototype followed but this had its wheeled undercarriage replaced with floats for the floatplane torpedo bomber role. In the end, the wheeled version won out and the design formally entered service with the FAA during 1940. Click to expand...

TomS said: Seems there was one prototype with floats, but I've been unable to track down a photo. I'm not entirely sure the source is accurate. Click to expand...

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• Sailboat Guide

H22 is a 21 ′ 11 ″ / 6.7 m monohull sailboat designed by Rob Humphreys and built by Lion Yacht starting in 1994.

Rig and Sails

Auxilary power, accomodations, calculations.

The theoretical maximum speed that a displacement hull can move efficiently through the water is determined by it's waterline length and displacement. It may be unable to reach this speed if the boat is underpowered or heavily loaded, though it may exceed this speed given enough power. Read more.

Classic hull speed formula:

Hull Speed = 1.34 x √LWL

Max Speed/Length ratio = 8.26 ÷ Displacement/Length ratio .311 Hull Speed = Max Speed/Length ratio x √LWL

Sail Area / Displacement Ratio

A measure of the power of the sails relative to the weight of the boat. The higher the number, the higher the performance, but the harder the boat will be to handle. This ratio is a "non-dimensional" value that facilitates comparisons between boats of different types and sizes. Read more.

SA/D = SA ÷ (D ÷ 64) 2/3

• SA : Sail area in square feet, derived by adding the mainsail area to 100% of the foretriangle area (the lateral area above the deck between the mast and the forestay).
• D : Displacement in pounds.

Ballast / Displacement Ratio

A measure of the stability of a boat's hull that suggests how well a monohull will stand up to its sails. The ballast displacement ratio indicates how much of the weight of a boat is placed for maximum stability against capsizing and is an indicator of stiffness and resistance to capsize.

Ballast / Displacement * 100

Displacement / Length Ratio

A measure of the weight of the boat relative to it's length at the waterline. The higher a boat’s D/L ratio, the more easily it will carry a load and the more comfortable its motion will be. The lower a boat's ratio is, the less power it takes to drive the boat to its nominal hull speed or beyond. Read more.

D/L = (D ÷ 2240) ÷ (0.01 x LWL)³

• D: Displacement of the boat in pounds.
• LWL: Waterline length in feet

Comfort Ratio

This ratio assess how quickly and abruptly a boat’s hull reacts to waves in a significant seaway, these being the elements of a boat’s motion most likely to cause seasickness. Read more.

Comfort ratio = D ÷ (.65 x (.7 LWL + .3 LOA) x Beam 1.33 )

• D: Displacement of the boat in pounds
• LOA: Length overall in feet
• Beam: Width of boat at the widest point in feet

Capsize Screening Formula

This formula attempts to indicate whether a given boat might be too wide and light to readily right itself after being overturned in extreme conditions. Read more.

CSV = Beam ÷ ³√(D / 64)

Initially designed as a kit boat for amateur builders using the ‘Prefix’ build system, (glass moldings with pre-cut plywood panels). The H22 is now being built of glass sandwich construction in Latvia. At least one class racing fleet exists in Italy.

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J-Class Lionheart 1/16 scale laser-cut frame set, total length 106″ – kit number MW101!

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